Curse

IxChel · Jun 30, 2005, 10:35 AM // 10:35

A few days ago I posted a thread on PUG Management 101. This was the experience of a Monk primary trying to get good PUGs in late-game. In that thread, Algren Cole suggested that the techniques used would only work for a monk. I'm here to report on a slight variant of the technique that has worked reasonably well for a Level 12-14 Ranger/Mesmer.

The primary disease that most PUGs suffer from, in my humble opinion, is impatience. In a group of 6-8, about 1/2 of them have done the mission so many times that it is boring to them -- and they just want to get through it. Waiting even an extra minute before they enter must be almost unbearable (or why would they behave so badly?). Even if they do wait, when the PUG shows even the slightest signs of imperfection -- they disconnect. Many PUGs that I've been in suffer from a rather severe version of this problem, when a chain-reaction of impatience/disconnects causes group formation/restarts to take even longer (on average) than it otherwise would. When each person optimizes for their own "get through quick" time, it makes life painful for everyone.

So, I've been experimenting with forming PUGs that an impatient person would never want to join. I've been selling my PUGs as a Scenic Tour Group. While a Scenic Tour Group (turtle) might take longer than a group of skilled, and mission-minded folk (rabbits), on average, I think a higher "First Time Capability" and continual plodding will beat the rabbits -- on average. I don't have any evidence (yet) to back-up this hypothesis.

To start a Scenic Tour Group, I first find a Monk. Its really very difficult to build a group without a Monk -- so this really has to be your first "hire". My last successful tour group went something like this:

* Ranger-Led 2h Scenic Tour Group through Divinity Coast! We stop
to observe the landscape, and almost always finish the mission!

* Scenic Tour Group seeks Assistant Monk. Apply only if you can make
a 2h commitment, enjoy standing in a Healing Spring, being patient
with newbies, and most importantly -- having a good time!

I usually have to repeat this a few times. I get many abusive messages (like STFU N00B). But eventually, within about 10 minutes, a Monk bites. The healers that do bite are the right kind of monk: one with lots of patience. After a string of failures, they are ready to take their time.

Once you have a monk (and the healers that I've gotten have been very good and have stuck with the group till the very end), you can go on to general recruiting.

* Healer-Equipped 2h Scenic Tour Group through Divinity Coast! We
stop to smell the roses; and quite often -- we even finish the mission.

* Scenic Tour Group leaving in 10 minutes -- reserve your slot today!
Explore the exotic coast land! Observe Tengu in their natural habitat.

At this point I get many offers. After I have 1-2 slots left, I start to think about group balance. I try to get at exactly one tank and at least one nuker. Some of the specific messages I used were:

* Scenic Tour Group seeks patient Tank to defend our soft-bellied
casters from nasty Tengu. Must be willing to cripple, bleed, and
kill all sorts of wildlife, including Imps and Bog Scales.

* Scenic Tour Group seeks thoughtful Nuker who can make
roast Ettin for our lunch break. Must know how to stay out
of trouble and let our tanks... Tank!

My startup experiment went wonderfully. Right as the last person was accepted (the 6th), without any attempt to say "hello" or anything graceful, started to spam "GO GO GO". So, I put on the chat line: "this is a tour group, not a frat house". When he continued with "GO GO GO", I kicked him. Then, the 4th person said: "he left, get a henchie". To which I said: "no, I kicked him; he was too impatient". So the 4th person left. At this point, with two people leaving, I was expecting a mass exodus. But it didn't happen; the other 3 people (monk, an elementalist and a warrior), expressed that they were glad impatient people left.

These three formed the core group of what was to be one of the most enjoyable PUG sessions that I've had. We took our time, talked strategy, and even got the bonus. Anyway, I hope this is helpful.

gabby2600 · Jun 30, 2005, 11:01 AM // 11:01

My favorite tactics is to let the impatient one run in to trouble and die, then resurect them and say if you do that again I'm not resurecting you again, they soon stop, or they leave. As most missions are possible with 2 less people, I message them from the other side, saying shame you could not hang around but we did the mission and bonus without you.

I have even been called f*cking idiot when W/Mo tried to rush Elona's Reach, when I told everyone to stay back and wait for the groups to separate. Sadly I found Elona's was easier with henchmen.

Henchmen are highly underated, however Bone Horrors are Nuts.

1) Henchies never run off on their own, Bone Horrors are psychotic and charge after anythign that moves.

2) Henchies will attack your target or the healer first, Bone Horrors are psychotic and if it move they kill it, with no regard to order.

3) Henchies Don't give you grief, Bone Horrors are psychotic, they make an amusing nosie when they die.

4) The Henchie AI is a bit lacking in personality, The Bone Horrors are Psychotic.

5) You could never see the Henchies at a party, The Bone Horrors are Psychostic and you can imagine they party all night.

6) The Henchmen rarely use skill, The Bone Horrors Don't need skills they are Psychotic.

All in all they are both better than some players, Henchemen are predictable and Bone Horrors are just Psycotic.

Xanthar · Jun 30, 2005, 11:36 AM // 11:36

I have tried an approach very similar to yours IxChel, and found it to work splendidly. I'm also always on the lookout for people recruiting with some amount of humor and finesse - People doing so are likely of the adult persuasion, likely to be patient, and, most importantly, fun to go on a mission with.

There is a lightweight version of process one can try, that have met with moderate success for me: When recruiting, say that you will only invite people who give you a whisper.

This will weed out the percentage of the playerbase that is not willing to touch the keyboard apart from the numpad, and will also give you an estimation of their psychological age. Of course, a player whispering "Hi there! Any use for a necro in the group? An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of healing

" will be recruited whereas another player whispering "I hav ----ing best dPS, u need me!" will not.

The lightweight variant may not yield as good results as the through "Right player for the given job" method, but it WILL yield a better than average PUG. YMMV

Tetris L · Jun 30, 2005, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Sounds like a very good idea, actually.

It may take a little longer until you get going, but once you're on the "run" (sorry for the impatient word) you'll probably be much more effective and having a better time.

I shall try this!

Paladin_Adoni · Jun 30, 2005, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Nice, I like the comical wording. fantastic.

only question is, HOW do you fit that onto one chatline?

LOL j/k

I play the earlier slightly easier missions now, that I would have a good chance of making it on my own. and join into other groups, especially looking for those that have had a hard time with rushers/idiots/morons etc.

then, even if the idiots piss off, I am there to pull them through to the end. no charge of course

and the general view is THEY LOVE IT!

Khift · Jun 30, 2005, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanthar

I have tried an approach very similar to yours IxChel, and found it to work splendidly. I'm also always on the lookout for people recruiting with some amount of humor and finesse - People doing so are likely of the adult persuasion, likely to be patient, and, most importantly, fun to go on a mission with.

There is a lightweight version of process one can try, that have met with moderate success for me: When recruiting, say that you will only invite people who give you a whisper.

This will weed out the percentage of the playerbase that is not willing to touch the keyboard apart from the numpad, and will also give you an estimation of their psychological age. Of course, a player whispering "Hi there! Any use for a necro in the group? An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of healing

" will be recruited whereas another player whispering "I hav ----ing best dPS, u need me!" will not.

The lightweight variant may not yield as good results as the through "Right player for the given job" method, but it WILL yield a better than average PUG. YMMV

That's what I've been doing recently. It works, too. Sure, sometimes you get the occasional bad apple, (Like that necro I picked up last night for Fissure because he said he had ritual and BiP but then proceeded to do nothing but Well of Power, Soul Barbs and Vampiric Gaze) but for the most part it works much better than invite spamming or just accepting anyone.

Xanthar · Jul 01, 2005, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Well, no matter HOW detailed your screening process is, it's impossible to guard against all the twerps out there.

On the other hand, having hand-selected a team means that it is less likely to break up even after a failure, meaning that if that one moron destroys your mission, there is a definite possibility that you can restart with the same core team - The good players will have an emotional investment to take care of and stay for another try, the bad ones just get the boot back at the outpost

Uzul · Jul 01, 2005, 09:10 AM // 09:10

big thanks for the inspiration... i was tempted to put in more time and roleplay into my party-rectruitings but i just played without anyone to save time and keep my sanity ^_^
anyhow... after reading your post i wanted to give it another try... darn random jerks won't scare me away. in several hours i met a lot of people and a core group of 3 patient adventurers stayed with me all the time - i never got a whisper from someone with a "strange" name (i guess you all know which names i mean) - i am very satisfied with the way that went.
so long >_<
great idea, you will see me do sth similar EVERYtime now

Uzul · Nov 22, 2005, 04:47 PM // 16:47

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=27049
[ Leading a Scenic Tour Group - Avoiding Terminal Impatience by IxChel, SoF]

for the last 3 months...nearly all my pugs have been great (95%) - and it's thanks to IxChel's thread: seeing a lot of rant on pugs again lately i thought that i should bring it up again.

so, whats this all about?
well, the system is working so great for me that i started putting a trademark on it - and i want to bring it back here where i found it. (see link above)

a few things are important to form a pa-group:

1) be patient yourself

2) be creative when it comes to advertising [mantle-hunting group lf more patient adventurers (tm) ...]

(see above link for really creative examples)
3) get to know your adventurers [no talk - no walk]
4) no blind invites [i always whisper ppl before inviting or getting invited, makes a big diffrence you will see]
5) does the person have a name? [and i mean a real name - as intended in the very beginning...]

anyhow, back to where i was: while forming the group - make sure to talk to the team - those who dont wan't to talk aren't patient enough - they will leave and mess up some other group. (and there will be ppl leaving while you talk to others - unpatience shows up pretty early - which is good *g*)
another thing: full party size is no must, its luxury - so don't force yourself to get the party full if you found a few patient adventurers (tm) already.
same applies for the 2nd monk - pure luxury in most cases. (been only monk in moladune, tk, rof,... we even got the bonus - and that were 5-6 ppl parties

)

i will try and cut this short now: there are a LOT of nice ppl out there - especially new people who care to PLAY and have an ADVENTURE - find those - they may be new, but they are patient. and even veterans who played everything again and again can be with you - there are patient ones, those that have bonded with tyria and it's creatures long ago...

i hope my english is understandable (and with only a few spelling errors) and this thread makes sense to you - thanks for reading: hopefully your pugs will become better - for more inspiration read IxChel's thread on leading a scenic tour group!

at last a message to all my patient adventures (tm) from the last months: rock on! patience FTW!!!

~Uzul~

SlayerD · Nov 22, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Well, what about those who talk too much [like me] who alway get STFU from others in the party, it kind piss me off when i ask someone to wait to regen my energy and gte STFU stright back

Savio · Nov 22, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Merged because IxChel's post should be bumped.

Makkert · Nov 22, 2005, 10:11 PM // 22:11

http://sof-guild.com/index.php?Page=pugmanagement
The above link is to a SoF article that is based on IXChel's 101 and an internal (guild) article on PUG Management by my hand.

Uzul · Nov 22, 2005, 11:12 PM // 23:12

merge is a good idea as i intented to get attention back on the scenic-thread: thx savio

@slayerD - patient adventurers never say stfu (we don't believe in swearing ^^) and i talk a lot myself, especially ingame

RyuuTenshi · Nov 23, 2005, 12:53 AM // 00:53

This might be a bad thing, but I normally don't whisper to the party I want to join. If they don't want me then I'm fine with that, moving on. This scenic tour idea sounds great except for the fact it takes two hours or so. Going slow is important, but two hours sounds a little too much. Most people don't want to spend two hours on a single mission. Well, that's just my two cents.

coolsti · Nov 23, 2005, 11:51 AM // 11:51

To the O.P.:

Great idea and you are definitely on the right track. I now try to prune out impatient and non-team players with my advertising for a group.

One method I found that works well is to start a group off with the two henchy monks. If there are a few real monks available that join the party later, then fine, the henchies can get kicked. But the presence of henchy monks help filter out the kind that I would rather not party with. And besides, I do not want to wait for monks, I will play with the henchies if no monks are available.

I had a hard time getting into my very first FOW group, so I advertised something like "FOW-Newby group being formed. Anyone with little FOW experience may apply". My group got filled in no time. Unfortunately the very last member, a monk, did not see this advertising and got rather angry underway, when he saw that we didn't quite know what we were supposed to do down there.

In response to all the calls I see like "forming party, no NOOBS!" I actually am tempted to go to a mission town and advertise something like "Noob player forming party to do mission! All noobs and fun players are welcome to join!". Be interesting to see what happens.

Opal Bridewood · Nov 23, 2005, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Agreed Coolsti, though i would rather wait 15 minutes to fill group with "real" people, than start out with henchies. This is also tests the patience of your fellows.

Meanwhile chatting with party members, or discussing tactics for the mission or quest i find well worth the time. Mind, that henchie healers are capable enough to do most missions in my opinion, but still...

Cheers

ps: This thread is great!

Esprit · Nov 23, 2005, 12:49 PM // 12:49

When you advertise a 2 hour scenic tour group, do you actually intend to spend that much time on one mission (using Divinity Coast as your example)? Or is it just a front to weed out the impatient players?

Fantus · Nov 23, 2005, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Great post, IxChel!

To advertise a mission as a kind of guided tour is a cool approach, which should you get the "fun to be with" people you're looking for. And yes, my monk certainly would apply to your group, despite she usually doesn't like playing in a PUG due to too many bad experiences with idiot players.

I guess I am going to try that approach one day myself, although I have rarely set up a PUG myself so far. Whenever I want to play in a PUG, I always go with my Mesmer - that's the best guarantee you will ever get for ending up in a cool group - idiot players won't ever take you in because they all think Mesmers suck.

About the "STFU" thing:

It makes me wish that GW would have a function that would

1.) Check if anyone used a "STFU n00b" in chat.
2.) Take a screenshot of the scene and generate an automated report mail to A-net
3.) Kick the player from the area and send them back to the outpost
4.) Remove 10k of experience points from them

It would make GW soo much better....